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25 September 2007 07:15  

iepurica
Number of messages: 2102
Only in Romania live over 100 000. I don't know how many in Greece, Serbien, Albanien, Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria. Iceland has a population of only 290 000, so probably is more than that. The problem is that, from 1951 there was no official record of the Aromanian population in Balcans, but there is an estimation of 500 000 people living scattered over the Balcans.

And as a funny fact, if you like football and you have heard about Hagi, he is actually aromanian.

 

25 September 2007 07:14  

pluiepoco
Number of messages: 1263
I never heard of that language, aromanian, does it mean false romanian, or non-romanian?
 

25 September 2007 07:21  

iepurica
Number of messages: 2102
No, is a dialect of Romanian language spoken by the Aromanians. Have you read the link Francky gave it to us? Is all what you need to know there.

As an information, Romanian has three dialects: Aromanian, Istro-Romanian and Megleno-Romanian. But all of these you can find them readind Francky's link.
 

25 September 2007 07:30  

pluiepoco
Number of messages: 1263
The problem is I cannot open the link. Censored.

I understand this, and I heard that censoring is not unique in China, it is everywhere in the world. Is it true?
 

25 September 2007 08:34  

iepurica
Number of messages: 2102
Look here than:

Aromanian (also known as Macedo-Romanian, Arumanian or Vlach in most other countries; in Aromanian: limba armãneascã, armãneshce or armãneashti) is an Eastern Romance language spoken in Southeastern Europe. Its speakers are called Aromanians.

It was formed after the Roman conquest of the Balkans and shares many features with modern Romanian, having similar grammar and morphology. The most important dissimilarity between Romanian and Aromanian is the vocabulary, which in the case of the former has been influenced to a greater extent by its neighbouring Slavic languages, while Aromanian has borrowed much vocabulary from the Greek language with which it has been in close contact throughout its history. Also the difference between the two languages have been identified because of the different original languages from which the Aromanian and Romanian have emerged. Namely Aromanian has three different strata in its form: ancient stratum (made from the language spoken in Epirus, Thessaly, Illyria and Macedonia), the Latin stratum (brought from the Roman empire) and Greek or Hellenic stratum which was added during the Roman and Byzantine Empires. In its further development, the language acquired some Turkish words during the reign of the Ottoman Empire.

Geographic distribution
The Aromanian language and people are officially recognised as a minority in the Republic of Macedonia, but large Aromanian communities are also found in Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia as well as in Romania, where some Aromanians having migrated from the Balkans after the destruction of the Aromanian centers of Moscopole and Gramostea/Grammos region in Western Macedonia.

Official status
The Aromanian language has a degree of official status in the Republic of Macedonia where Aromanian is taught as an optional subject in some primary schools (in Skopje, Kruševo and Bitola) and Aromanian speakers have the right to use the language in court proceedings. Since 2006 the Aromanian language became the second official language, after Macedonian in the city of Kruševo. [3]

History
The language is similar to Romanian and its greatest difference lies in the vocabulary. There are far fewer Slavic words in Aromanian than in Romanian, and many more Greek words, a reflection of the close contact of Aromanian with Greek through much of its history.

It is generally considered that sometime between 800 and 1,200 years ago, the Vulgar Latin spoken in the Balkan provinces of the Roman Empire split into four languages: Daco-Romanian (today's Romanian language), Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian. Some linguists consider the term Proto-Romanian not valid.[4]

Greek influences are much stronger in Aromanian than in other East Romance languages, especially because Aromanian used Greek words to coin new words (neologisms), while Romanian based most of its neologisms on Italian and French.

Also, with the coming of the Turks in the Balkans, Aromanian received some Turkish words as well. Still the lexical composition remains mainly Romance.


Dialects
There are Aromanian dialects which are named after two respective places nowadays located in Albania and Greece: the Moscopole dialect (from the town of Moscopole, also known as the "Aromanian Jerusalem" and the Gramustean dialect (from the Gramostea/Grammos region). Many linguists think that the language spoken by the Farsherots differs significantly from the afore-mentioned and therefore it should be considered as a separate dialect. Also there are the dialects of Malovista, Gopesh, Beala Supra, Krusevo, and the dialects east of the Vardar River in Macedonia.


Grammar
The grammar and morphology are very similar to those of Romanian and unlike the other Romance languages. The definite article is a clitic particle appended at the end of the word, both the definite and indefinite articles can be inflected, and nouns are classified in three genders, with neuter in addition to masculine and feminine.


Verbs
Aromanian grammar does have some features that distinguish it from Romanian, an important one being the complete disappearance of verb infinitives which clearly puts it in the lower part of the Balkans. As such, the tenses and moods that in Romanian use the infinitive (like the future simple tense and the conditional mood), in Aromanian they are formed in other ways. For the same reason, verb entries in dictionaries are given in their indicative mood, present tense, first person, singular form.

Aromanian verbs are classified in four conjugations. The table below gives some examples, indicating also the conjugation of the corresponding verbs in Romanian. [5]

Situation in Greece

Even before the incorporation of Aromanian-speaking territories into the Greek state, the language was subordinated to Greek, traditionally the Aromanians' language of education and religion. The historical studies cited below (mostly Capidan) show that especially after the fall of Moscopole (178 the process of grecization via education and religion gained a strong impetus mostly among people doing business in the cities.

The Romanian state began opening schools for the Aromanians in the 1860s, but this initiative was regarded with suspicion by some Aromanians, who thought Romania was trying to assimilate them. Antagonism between grecized Aromanians (known as "grecomani" who rejected what they perceived as Romanian propaganda, and those who accepted their non-Greek (latin) identity promoted in the Romanian schools, tore apart the Aromanian community in the first half of the 20th century. The grecomans and the Greek militia (known as "andarti" terrorized the Pindus region between 1903-1912 leading to a diplomatic crisis with Romania in 1911 (see Adina Berciu, Maria Petre: 2004).

In 1948, the new Soviet-imposed communist regime of Romania closed all Romanian-run schools outside Romania and since the closure, there has been no formal education in Aromanian and speakers have been encouraged to learn and use the Greek language.

The issue of Aromanian-language education is still a sensitive one, partly because of the painful memories. Greek propaganda is still very strong in the area, Aromanians being considered a sort of "latinized greeks". The pro Greek lobby oppose the introduction of the language into the education system as EU and leading Greek political figures have suggested, viewing it as an artificial distinction between them and other Greeks. For example, the former education minister, George Papandreou, received a negative response from Aromanian mayors and associations to his proposal for a trial Aromanian language education programme. The Panhellenic Federation of Cultural Associations of Vlachs (Πανελλήνια Ομοσπονδία Πολιτιστικών Συλλόγων Βλάχων) expressed strong opposition to EU's recommendation in 1997 that the tuition of Aromanian be supported so as to avoid its extinction.[2]. On a visit to Metsovo, Epirus in 1998, Greek President Costis Stephanopoulos called on Vlachs to speak and teach their language, but its decline continues.

A recent example of the sensitivity of the issue was the 2001 conviction (later overturned in the Appeals Court) to 15 months in jail of Sotiris Bletsas [3][4], a Greek Aromanian who was found guilty of "dissemination of false information" after he distributed informative material on minority languages in Europe (which included information on minority languages of Greece), produced by the European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages and financed by the European Commission. His conviction met with broad condemnation in Greece and it emerged that his case was zealously pursued by Aromanian leaders who viewed themselves as patriotic Greeks and felt confronted by the suggestion that they belonged to a "minority". Bletsas was eventually acquitted.


[edit] Language sample
Tatã a nostru
cai eshci pi tser,
s-ayisascã numa a Ta,
s-yinã Amirãrilja a Ta,
s-facã vreare-a Ta,
cum pi tserlu,
ashi sh-pisti loc.
Pãne-a nostrã atsea di cathi dzuã dã-nã-u sh-azã
shi ljartã-nã amãrtiile-a noastre
ashi cum lji-ljirtãm sh-a amãrtoshlor a noshci.
Shi nu nã-du la pirazmo,
ala aveaglji-nã di atsel arãulu.
Cã a Ta easte Amirãrilja shi puteare
a Tatãlui shi Hiljlui shi a Ayului Spirit,
torã, totãna shi tu eta-a etilor.
Amen.
(the Lord's Prayer - source)

Tuti iatsãli umineshtsã s-fac liberi shi egali la nãmuzea shi-ndrepturli. Eali suntu hãrziti cu fichiri shi sinidisi shi lipseashti un cu alantu sh-si poartã tu duhlu-a frãtsãljiljei.
(Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), translated by Dina Cuvata

 

25 September 2007 09:59  

pluiepoco
Number of messages: 1263
Thanks, the Balkans is a pot of boiling water.
 

12 October 2007 01:47  

GeoffG
Number of messages: 2
Here's another vote for ancient Greek. If we want to subdivide it by dialect, I'd add (in order of desirability)

1) Attic
2) Koine
3) Homeric

The other dialects are too rarely encountered.

However, I'd also point out that anyone who knows one is likely to know all three, so separate listings by dialect isn't really necessary.
 

26 January 2008 13:11  

perijove
Number of messages: 17
I speak Swahili as my first language and was a little disappointed to see that it isn't listed. Doesn't the listing of some languages and labeling others as 'other' smack of arrogance.

I think that limiting the number of languages listed to a minimum may be detrimental to the growth of the site in future. More languages listed will attract more traffic to the site.
 

29 January 2008 05:19  

joels341
Number of messages: 4
Hi, all. I know that this language is not very popular these days, but after hearing some other suggestions, I felt the need to at least attempt suggesting it. Even if it's not selected, I think it might of interest to people, so I will mention it.

Ladino (also known as Judeo-Spanish). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladino_language
 

29 January 2008 08:38  

cucumis
Number of messages: 3785
Thx joels, we have many languages missing and some of them, like swahili are spoken by millions of people. I keep in mind your suggestion. But I think Swahili will be added before Ladino.

Before being able to add many languages I must change the language selection system to split "minor" and "major" languages. It's becoming more nad more difficult to find a lnguage in this list of 60 languages...
 

31 January 2008 13:54  

perijove
Number of messages: 17
JP, I'm informed that I have to translate some basics for the site in Swahili first before the language is added, if you give me the template I'll be very willing to translate.
 

13 February 2008 08:12  

cucumis
Number of messages: 3785
I've finaly had time to add those languages. You can see today 11 new languages in the list.

The swahili interface will be soon online thx to prijove.

Romani
Sanskrit
Punjabi
Yiddish
Swahili
Ancient greek
Javanese
Literary Chinese / Wényánwén
Telugu
Marathi
Tamil

For thos who can speak those languages, update your profile
 

13 February 2008 08:56  

Botica
Number of messages: 643
Great !

 

13 February 2008 11:24  

iepurica
Number of messages: 2102
Well, if Romani got in the list, than Aromanian should be also introduced.

As a simple example, Faroese is spoken by about 75 000 people and it is in the list, there are even a few people on the site who know this language, than Aromanian that is spoken by more than 300 000 people should be also. In the end it is beautiful language.
 

13 February 2008 14:04  

cucumis
Number of messages: 3785
OK Iepurica, let's start the list for the next wave.
The things that are taken into account to add a new language are :
1) we have members who can contribute
2) high number of speakers
3) ?
 

13 February 2008 16:37  

smy
Number of messages: 2481
What about langaguages that exist only in written documents today? like Ottoman...
 

13 February 2008 17:19  

Mideia
Number of messages: 949
What a great idea adding ancient greek!!!!
 

13 February 2008 20:16  

hanternoz
Number of messages: 61
Welsh (Cymru)... is spoken by more than half a million of people in Wales and throughout the world (USA, South America, ...)

It is twice the number of Breton speakers. It is officially taught in Wales, contrary to the Breton :-(, have numerous newspapers and radios, at least one TV broadcaster, etc.

Old and beautiful litterature, with a still growing number of speakers, used both in everyday life and in literature. The model of a winning revival for a Celtic language.
 

14 February 2008 21:15  

Cisa
Number of messages: 765
Celtic languages should absolutely be added, as well as more widely studied ancient languages, e.g. Ancient Greek, Wenyawen, Sanskrit, Biblical Hebrew, Old Church Slavonic, Classical Arabic (?).

We could also add Tibetan, I can imagine we have members from China or India who speak it.

More African languages maybe: Volof, Xhosa...

Asia: Burmese, Cambodian,
more Indian languages Punjabi, Malayalam, Urdu

Altaic: Kazakh, Kyrgiz, Tajik, Uzbek, Uygur...

Nynorsk

Gallego

Sindarin, Quenya (Tolkien)
 

20 February 2008 22:40  

iepurica
Number of messages: 2102
Sorry, jp, now I saw your message. I didn't want to create such a list, it was just an observation. There are a lot of languages in the list which don't have, let's say so, a proper user representation.
 
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